THE NEW ENTERTAINMENT LICENSING BILL

Is this for real or a "joke" email...

I've seen about 3 versions of this email, as it's going around musician circles as well, but in all of them there a load of things which doesn't ring true...

Has anyone confirmed this at all?

I thought it sounded a bit iffy, too. Very worrying if it is true, though. How do we check it out? Does anyone know?

I've got a copy of this from a fairly reliable source (Thames Branch of Equity) on the site Click here.

If it is for real it has major consequences for amateur theatre.

Jane

Found these on the Net...

http://www.ias.org.uk/reform.htm

http://www.ibclegal.com/ls1072/?source=ibclaw

http://www.popall.co.uk/story.asp?storyid=1306

This being a Gov Doc
http://www.alg.gov.uk/attachments/263/TEC0...20Licensing.pdf


BUT read this one...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/entertainment/1926330.stm

This act is a very real threat - more something associated with the Taliban than a free Western democracy. The penalty is a fine of ?20,000 and/or a six month prison sentence.

I've been following the issue for a few months and the best info I have is here:

http://www.wgma.org.uk/licensing.html

http://www.twoinabar.co.uk/

and a transcript of the June 02 Gov. debate is here

http://www.ijull.org/vol4/2/music.pdf

There's a good account of "illegal morris dancing" from The Guardian here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...4229929,00.html

Even a string quartet playing at Waterstones bookshop was banned:

http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/trg/SCoFF/quartet.htm

If Countryside Alliance can get a lot of public support in reaction to the possibility of losing the traditional right to tear foxes apart then we should also fight - perhaps series of mass law breaking - public singing, dancing and play reading should take place up and down the country.

Brian

This is all quite worrying, isn't it? Will we all be told individually about this from an official source and told to apply for a license? Or will we just carry on as we are and be caught out? How seriously do we take this? My group is a very small group but we do perform for old people's homes and other organisations outside of our actual productions. We perform our own productions in a school, will they need to have the licence? And is that good enough, or will we need to get one aswell. I hope we are told more about this, I wouldn't have known anything if I hadn't seen it on here. Are we worrying needlessly, should we just wait and see what happens? As if there isn't enough to worry about in amateur theatre without this!!

has anyone any idea why such a draconian bill is considered necessary? Or now they've got away with RIPA do they think they can get away with anything?

this wouldn't happen under a Labour government...

Ged

Hmm. It's all rather confusing, isn't it? I THINK we're OK as we are a private members club but it's a bit woolly....

This site seems to give a lot of answers...

Public Entertainment Licence

However, I'm pretty sure that they aren't going to throw us all in prison. My advice would be to ring your local council if you are unsure. Note that it says "if the public are invited to attend", so rehearsals should be fine. (We are not invited, we are ordered!)

I for one though will be rehearsing as usual in my unlicenced church hall on Sunday.

Well, we run as a private members club and have a fully licensed bar downstairs which appears to be important for some reason. Here's hoping that's enough!

So, is it the venue that has to have the licence and not the group. As we perform in a school, would they have to get the licence? And if we were to do a concert at an old people's home, would they be expected to have a licence? Should I contact my local council to ask about it? Does anyone know the right way to deal with this? We don't want to be locked up!!!!

It appears that Richard Littlejohn might read these boards! For yuo Sun readers out there, turn to page 11 of the paper.

And yes Christine, it would appear that the schol would need a licence. The OAP home is more unclear though. But then, I'm no expert.

Ok, I know it's elsewhere here but: WRITE TO YOUR MP - NOW!

You can find the address using this locator.

Don't winge later if you have done nothing now.

Get everyone in your group to write. Never mind the protests, the thing MP's hate is lots of mail saying the same thing. Don't use a 'standard' letter. Write it in person and explain what inpact it will have on you and his/her other constituents.

Write also to one or more peers. They can cause even more trouble for the government of the day. Look here for contact details. Tip, it's generally better to write to a peer belonging to the same party as the government of the day. e.g. Labour.

Do it now ......... Please!

Robin

Thanks for the heads up on this Martin. Not normally being a Sun reader I purchased the paper after reading this thread and quote:

"One person I have always regarded as something of a national treasure is Billy Bragg, even though I think he's wrong on just about everything.

Now, I'm delighted to say there is one issue on which I am 100 per cent in agreement with him.

That's the new Licensing Act, the Government's latest attempt to turn everyone into criminals. Except criminals.

As Billy Bragg points out, all public performances of singing and dancing by more than two people will become offences unless licensed by local bureaucrats, punishable by a ?20,000 fine and six months in prison.

It could kill pub gigs and traditional entertainments such as carol services and Morris Dancing.

Already inspectors have started roaming pubs warning landlords they will be prosecuted unless they stop punters singing.

Where did this law come from? Any why? Who dreamed this up?

What sort of country is it which thinks a 20 grand fine and six months in the slammer is the proper penalty for allowing a few drunks to belt out I Will Survive on the karaoke?

Especially a country in which the Lord Chief Justice thinks burglars shouldn't be sent to prison.

Billy Bragg is campaigning to stop this madness reaching the statute books.

He once wrote a song called Which Side Are You On?

On this, Billy, I'm with you."

Richard Littlejohn, The Sun, January 3rd 2003, page 11

On this, Richard, I'm with you too!

Richard Littlejohn gives an email address in the paper. Perhaps people here would like me to contact him on behalf of us all, with a hope that he can put us in touch with Billy Bragg?

Let me know asap what you all think.

Jane

Go for it Jane.

In your role as official (or should that be unofficial?) spokesperson for amateur theatre in the UK, your opinion should carry more weight.

However, it's important that we all keep banging on about this. I don't fancy doing time just because some civil servant / public employee / elected representative wants to create jobs for the boys!

This governement is showing yet again how it is full of control freaks.

Robin

Way to go Jane!!!! Kick botty!!!!

I've got a contact for BBC Radio for Berkshire..
I'm going to speak to him and ask him to get the council to comment on this.

I'll let you know how I get on..

I've written to the BBC as follows... :-

Hello Andrew,

Hello, I'm writing to you because of the sudden and very worrying news which is filtering through the "Am Dram" world.

Berkshire would be one of the most hit counties because of the many, many groups there are in it's borders..

I'm approaching you as a known Crusader and with your "no sh*t" attitude I'm sure you'll be able to get the questions I seem not to be able to get answered.

The "NEW ENTERTAINMENT LICENSING BILL" seems to outlaw Am Dram Theatre and many groups are now worried this means a end to Am Dram as we know it...

Since the Lord Chief Justice thinks burglars shouldn't be sent to prison is he saying that he wants to fill them up with honest and dedicated Am Dramers? The Bill is confusing and even the councils themselves aren't sure what's right or wrong.

Are Scouts singing round the camp fire going to be fined or locked up?

Perhaps a "sing song" round the piano at the old folks home will attract the Riot Unit to burst in and arrest one and all?

I know we're being rather paranoid with the above sweeping statements but we as a whole dearly love our "Hobby". We don't make money out of Am Dram... A lot of hard work is put into it, and now it seems it's to be make illegal...

What's next in the news?

"Train Spotter Arrested After Chase"

"Stamp Collector Admits Stamp Smuggling"

Flippant I know, but we are very passionate about this.

All we want is CLEAR guidelines from councils regarding this.

Can you help?

George Riddell

That's definately unofficial

I'll have a think tonight and put something together and then post it here for everyone to have a read.

Jane

Go for it Jane

I'm sure that there something we could all do via our local newspapers to raise the issue as well. I'm writing right now and to the local MP as suggested! I think its disgraceful because in the end, its all down to money! Their revenue for licenses will go up under the threat of a hefty fine or jail. Grrrr. <_<

Lets spread the word!

Annoyed of Herts!!

Maybe unofficial Jane but you couldn't ask for a more lucid spokesperson.

Yes, I love the idea of this board co-ordinating a campaign for common sense, a few local press releases coming up I think

Does anyone know if this new entertainment licence covers Scotland or is it just England & Wales?

At last ... people are beginning to take notice about this. If the letter of the law is followed, anywhere is officially a venue, therefore you will be committing an offence if you sing Happy Birthday in your home/garden/toilet/pub whatever.

Do not let this happen, please note that charities will not be exempt from this legislation either. Fight back and stop this nonsense now.

I'll be taking this to my local Venue manager who may well shead soem more light on this - I guess in real life most of th eAmDram world will stick 2 fingers up and carry on as usual

I'll let you know what I come up with

Could we not get round this problem by including a membership fee within the ticket price so that the audience become members of our respective groups?

Flange, I see where you're coming from with your suggestion of membership fees but suggest this would be tricky in practice. What if someone wants to invoke their "rights" as a member - eg voting in meetings? And some audience members might turn round and say "but I paid my membership fee last time, I don't want to pay it again". It seems to me like it could go SO pear-shaped!

Instant membership may also provoke legal problems. Some of the legislation (I am not sure whether this is current or proposed) requires a club to have a 48 hour gap between application for membership and acceptance - so no members on the door!

Just to let you all know I haven't forgotten about this, but I'm doing my research. I've also asked a very experienced theatre practictioner to have a look for me as well - we will not take this lying down!

Jane

I sent an email to one of my local councillors and asked what he knew of this new Bill and he said he'd not heard of it before (good start - I thought!!). However, he forwarded my enquiry to someone at the borough council and this is the reply:

"The new licensing Bill was announced in the Queens speech on 13 November 2002 and was introduced into the House of Lords on 14 November. It is expected to
receive Royal Assent in March 2003 with the first licences being issued in mid
2004.

One of the policy objectives of the proposed legislation is support for community organisations holding small and temporary events that currently require complex licenses.

There has been much speculation and conjecture over the proposed measures
much of which is unfounded. A main aim of the new bill is to modernise and integrate the various licensing systems replacing it with a simpler, transparent and accountable system.

Public entertainment will not become illegal providing it is properly licensed which is the case at present. One important aspect of the Bill is that all premises providing alcohol or entertainment or refreshment at night will require a premises licence. You will appreciate that at this early stage a policy is not yet in place to carry out this function. It is my understanding that all fees will be set by government and at the moment I do not have any price structure for future licences.

The new Bill removes the present licensing functions from the Police and Magistrates Courts and places them with the local authority {Licensing Committee} although there will be a right of appeal to the Magistrates."

Does this shed any light for anyone?

Not really!!!!

Jane

> Public entertainment will not become illegal providing it is properly licensed which is the case at present.

so you're going to need a license...

> It is my understanding that all fees will be set by government

and it's going to cost....


bloke's out in his balloon one day, the wind picks up and he gets completely lost, finally he sees another bloke on the ground below. "Scuse me" he shouts "do you know where I am?"

"yes" says the bloke on the ground "you're in a balloon"...

Our group had a committee meeting last night and are very concerned about the implications of the act should it happen. Groups need to act together to stop it, even though some may not be affect, they need to support others who will be. What it suggests seems so complicated, we do need clarification.

As I read the bill Text of the Licencing Bill
section 3 details the licencing authorities in England and Wales but not in Scotland, therefore I deduce that the Bill does not apply in Scotland. I hope you have something better!

So, to my reading of this, all of the following will require licences:
All church services (inc Sunday School in the church hall)
All Scout/Guide meetings
All School assemblies
All prize-givings
All elections (if you find these things entertaining!)
etc

Also, what would have to be licensed for marching bands or carnivals (eg Notting Hill)? I can't see the organisers licensing a mile of road.

This seems to be legislation gone mad. Interpretations and stated intentions tend to waiver as time goes by. This must be stopped now.

Dave

according to my understanding, places of professional worship don't need a license.

i assume this is to exempt services - does anyone know if it would apply to performances?

Entertainment Licensing Bill

I have heard from my MP on this one and she suggests that the bill is mainly concerned with the prevention of excessive noise from 2 musicians in public premises due to advanced technology! However, she says the government Minister concerned is aware of the problems in respect of amateur groups, charities, party entertainers and after dinner speakers all of whom may be affected as a spin of from the Bill. Particularly if they work, rehearse or perform in any way on unlicensed premises. Both the venue and performer/s are liable. This may be especially important with over zealous councils.
Further assurances are being sought.
All we can do is contact our MP's.

This is also discrimanatory against religions that don't have a set "place".

..and what about amateur worship?

To publicise our panto some of the cast members get dressed up and hand out leaflets - will this be classed as "entertainment" or not????

Depends on your local authority. Technically, I suspect that the answer is yes. If they were to sing a chorus from one of the songs, then certainly. Even if they don't say anything, just being in character could be classed as performance and therefore entertainment.

You'll just have to apply for a temporary premises license for your local high street!

There is a rumour that Labour backbenchers are meeting the licensing minister Kim Howells today to discuss this Bill. More when I find out.

Jane

copy of email received by me!

With hundreds of letters now pouring into Parliament objecting to the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill, Labour backbenchers are becoming increasingly worried. At very short notice, they have arranged a meeting with licensing Minister Kim Howells. This meeting will be held tomorrow, Thursday 8 January, at noon.

If your MP is Labour please contact them immediately (the House of Commons switchboard is 020 7219 3000) and urge them to attend this meeting and to register their intention to attend with Martin Linton on 020 7219 1181. If you don't know who your MP is, Fax Your MP will let you know automatically from your postcode.

A footnote: government Ministers continue dismiss out of hand the legal advice that private events where performers are paid are caught by the Bill. In fact, on the day the Bill was published, the Arts Council received a legal opinion from one of the UK's leading licensing lawyers confirming that corporate hospitality events where performers are paid were licensable under the Bill as published. This contradicted the government's own statement published in the Explanatory Notes that accompany the Bill.

Jane,

I there any update today. I'm afraid I've been travelling the last two days so missed this. I can't find any reference to this meeting on the BBC or the web this morning.

Thanks ..... Robin

At the time of writing everything has gone very quiet.

Jane

Just a note to say this was being discussed on Radio 5's 'Sunday Service' today and it was not perceived as the greatest piece of legislation to say the least. I think there will be more and more protests as we get closer the dealine (a little like the cricket really).

Our local MP is a Deputy Speaker so I'll have a quiet word at his next surgery...

I've also seen the odd show that couldn't possibly be described as "entertainment" - would they be exempt?

<_<

Actually I think you're right Anne-Marie...

Am Dram will be fine, the Bill won't affect it as it won't be classed as entertainment *wink*

One of our members has just had this reply after emailing Tessa Jowell (Arts/Culture Minister? and our local MP!):


Thank you for your e-mail of 8 January to Tessa Jowell. I am replying on
behalf of the Secretary of State.

Unfortunately, a great deal of misinformation has been circulating with
regard to the Licensing Bill and so I am not surprised to learn of your
concerns.

The Government is confident that the licensing reforms will greatly benefit
all live performance in England and Wales. The Licensing Bill can now be
read and downloaded from our website (www.culture.gov.uk) under New
Responsibilities; News; The Parliament Website.

Allow me to address the specific points raised in your letter:-

PERFORMANCES OF LIVE MUSIC IN PRIVATE HOMES AND GARDENS FOR PRIVATE PARTIES
AND WEDDINGS

These will not be licensable unless the host takes the unusual step of
charging his guests to attend.

ENTERTAINING CHILDREN AT SOMEONE'S HOME

The same would apply as above.

SINGING FOR RESIDENTS AT AN OLD PEOPLE'S HOME OR HOSPITAL

Where this is for a private audience of non-paying patients (as opposed to a
paying general public) it would not be construed as a public performance and
it would therefore be exempt from the need for a licence.

REHEARSALS & MUSIC TUITIION

Rehearsals and music tuition would be exempt from the licensing regime as
they do not involve staging public performances.

FINES FOR PERFORMERS

We are aware that one concern of performers is that the Bill makes it an
offence to carry out a licensable activity without a licence and that the
potential punishments are a prison sentence of up to six months or a fine of
up to ?20,000. Firstly, however, I must stress that these are maximum
penalties and, as with all offences, the courts would decide on the
appropriate punishment depending on the facts of the case. Where the public
has been put in danger, such punishment may be appropriate. Secondly, and
perhaps more importantly, the performer has a defence of due dilligence
under the provisions of the Bill; that is, if he has asked the person with
responsibility for the premises if they have been licensed for
entertainment, and is told that they have, he will have a defence if it
subsequently turns out that they have not.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES

There are understandable concerns about how the local authorities might
administer the new scheme, given the inconsistencies that exist under the
current system. The new reform Bill would require local authorities to
follow rules and procedures that they do not have to adhere to at this time.
They would have no discretion to refuse a licence or impose any condition
unless the police, an environmental health officer, the fire authority or
local residents had raised a reasonable objection to the licensee's
operating plan. The local authorities would disregard frivolous or
vexatious objections. In granting or refusing licences, or imposing any
conditions, the councils would be legally bound to take into account
guidance issued by the Secretary of State. Departure from this guidance,
without a good or valid reason, would provide grounds for an appeal to the
courts. The new system would ensure a consistent approach to the handling
of applications and any unreasonable decision would be easily identified
owing to the transparent nature of the procedures. Our measures would
result in local councils being more accountable than they currently are.

I hope that this letter has answered all the points raised by your e-mail.

Under the new premises licence, a licensee will be able to obtain permission
to sell alcohol but also provide public entertainment, stage a play, show a
film, or provide late night refreshment at no extra cost. Our Regulatory
Impact Assessment estimates that the one off cost of applying for a premises
licence will be between ?100 and ?500, with an annual charge of between ?50
and ?150. The fee levels will be set centrally by the Secretary of State to
prevent the present situation where inconsistent and, sometimes,
unreasonably high fees can be set by local authorities. We predict an end
to huge swathes of red tape and massive savings which will encourage live
performance in England and Wales.

Yours sincerely


RONNIE BRIDGETT
Policy Advisor
Alcohol and Entertainment Licensing Branch
Tourism Division

Personally, I find the words of the Bill less reassuring than the Words of Ms Jowell's assistant.

Take the following:
"SINGING FOR RESIDENTS AT AN OLD PEOPLE'S HOME OR HOSPITAL

Where this is for a private audience of non-paying patients (as opposed to a
paying general public) it would not be construed as a public performance and
it would therefore be exempt from the need for a licence. "

I cannot find a clause in the bill that distinguishes a "non-paying" audience from a "paying general public". Unless such a clause is in the bill, or a clear statement of the intention, the definition of what constitutes public entertainment will be left to the interpretation of the courts.

The rest is similarly vague.
Do not abdicate your right to be sceptical about government statements!

And we do a Singathon at the local shopping centre each year.. where we have collecting buckets?!! Is this gonna be dodgy!?! Who Knows?!!?

I couldn't agree more - I just thought I would share the response we've had, what little it tells us!