Hi there techies!!!!

I'm just a club chairman and panto director who always leaves the workings of the sound dept. to those directly involved in pressing the buttons, turning the knobs or whatever you folks do.

Over the years we have purchased our sound desk with 24 channels or so, added foldback speakers, induction loop, and show relay. Inputs are from cassette/cd/minidisk players, each of which is an individual item, and we now have lots of bits to connect up whenever we have to move the desk on to our balcony during shows.

Are desks available now to incorporate all these features in the one unit, and if so have you any idea of the costs involved. Are these desks programmable in the way that lighting desks are?

We are always on the lookout for new projects for our fundraising and feel that the time is coming when the sound-desk has a makeover.

Your suggestions please

People like Yamaha do some super consoles that can be fully programmed, automated and operated with the press of a button. They are all digital which takes some getting used to if, like me, you were brought up on analogue sound systems. I think though you are talking c ?10,000 unless someone knows differently! Other digital desks will take midi input from a computer which might work out much cheaper ebeven buying a laptop and software.

I would also strongly suggest you do not buy a unit with incorporated CD, Tape & Minidisc drives of any kind. They will always go wrong first and forever be a pain when they do. To get them repaired, you have to send the whole unit away! The easiest solution is to flight-case the mixer with the CD, tape, MP3 and amplifiers into a single unit (with castors). If that makes the unit two big to move, then put them into two. All you have to do is to take the covers off, hook up the speakers and voila', you have it working. If the CD player then starts to play up, you can remove it for repair or simply buy another and slot it in. I think all professional, most semi-professional and many domestic drives come with a 19" rack mount kit or it's available as an option.

Have you spoken to your sound guys to seek their ideas or are you minded to buy them a new toy as a surprise?

Hope this helps ....... Robin

You set me looking. The DDX 3216 from BEHRINGER is available for about a grand. It's 32 channel but I'm not sure it will do all that you seem to be looking for, but might warrant investigation.

A decent Digital desk that is programmable will be way over the wrong side of 10K Soundcraft do some good ones.

However this sounds like change for changes sake. Even though you get a programmable desk you'll still have to manually adjust each fader group. The go button merely changes the fader and EQ positions to a rough preset average - you then adjust each channel to take into account that nights conditions (actor, audience, temperature humidity etc) The automated desks are really only aimed at big boy sound when you've got 60 inputs + and no time to change the settigns

As for CD/MD - analogue tape *spit* firstly bin the tape - no arguement is justified if you have a CD and MD - that's one component out of the way. Desks do not have these installed the most you will get added to a 12 channel desk is an amp. after that you're on you own. the addition of other bits and pieces would degrade the sound paths and upset the harmonics within the desk.

DO as Robin has sugested and filght case your components - beware of weight though. If you want to make life easier and neater make up multicore cables - so that all the channels can be run in one cable - thus saving time.

If you want to improve your rig and spend money - but 1 Graphic EQ per channel pair (foh, stage, monitors) maybe even a feedback destroyer of two if you use mics.

meanwhile if your interested I'll have a look around to see what's out there in the 32 ch range

Thanks for the info. I take the point about disposing of the cassette player which is seldom used, and to flight case the kit would have its advantages, although there is a staircase to negotiate between our storage space and our usual site for using the desk.

I am certainly not looking to change for change sake, and being in a remote location we do not have any hire options due to the travelling involved. But I do have a couple more questions:-
1. Does a programmeable desk allow different fades to be programmed in for each sound effect

2. As stated in my first posting, I'm not a techie, so sell me the benefits of the Graphic EQ and feedback destroyer please.

Just done some digging and so far I've only found large format desks that are fully digital - nice price too ?80,000 upwards

To answer you question about fades the answer is yes - hit the go button and fades cross over - faders move and all the settings on the board change. If you can fund raise a new desk like this, then I'm moving north

Okay EQ's basically a huge tone control. they control the Bass mid and treble of the sound. This is normally split over 20 plus frequencies so you have fine control over the sound. Why use them - firstly to get the best out of your mic/desk/speaker/venue combination you need to control the sound - the EQ will do this. Especially when using mics - you have awful feedback because of the venue harmonics just by altering some of the EQ settings this will be cured.

Each EQ has 2 channels (left and Right) so you use one per output channel pair (foh, on stage monitors etc) You can get them in either digital or analogue - it's horses for courses - analogue has sliders which are easy to access where as digital allow you to programme them - price? whatever you're willing to pay

Feedback destroyers are an electronic buffer that search through sound frequencies and cut out those that are giving feedback. Great?? Well yes and know they are a tool not an answer to all your desires They work by monitoring frequencies and cutting out those that are constant. Hence if you mic a set of bagpipes they get shut down by the feedback destroyer (the drone first) Had this happen first hand - and depending on your perspective, might be a godsend!

I use them but as a tool only you still need good sound men. Like EQ's they are used per channel pair - like foh and stage etc.

Third toy is an effects rack - these plug into the desk and is used for things like reverb, echo, pitch and other useful effects -plus a lot of fun ones too

I have seen an amp rack of about 10U made from 3/4" ply, with two amps in, dropped four feet off a stage onto a hard floor. The corner of the rack got smashed, but the amps were still used that night for the show! Could your imagine what would have happened without the rack!

Many thanks for all the information. I'll certainly be better informed when our commitee next meet - I emailed this topic for their attention so that they too can swat up a little. The effects rack is extremely interesting and on reflection we'll have a good look at flightcasing the kit, getting rid of the cassette player and save up for an effects rack. Any idea of costing range for such racks Martin? and can you point me towards sources?

Gordon

For the effects processor try Canford Audio as a starting place. Yamaha make a range of SPX units however I can only find one listed at the moment Yamaha SPX 990 and this is ?700 this I believe to be a mid range unit I'm sure that you can get them cheaper but as is always the case - my trusty reference book (which is always to hand) seems to have vanished I'll keep looking.

If you are looking or a sound upgrade then I'd make sure you have 2 CD/MD players plus cases and GOOD quality leads as well - for fund raising purposes aim high for ?2k and then cut your cloth to meet your pocket

M


PS - if you get to buy a fully digital desk then I'm certainly going to pack my thermals and quit the home counties

Found another site

Beringer Who's prices seem a little more sane. I use their feedback destroyers (?112 ea) and their kit is okay. obviously in this industry you get what you pay for - but then again you're not touring and using this stuf daily so you'll not need top of the range.

happy hunting. Oh and might I request you let us know which way you went, and maybe even write a small piece for the main site - it will probably be of use and interest to others


Martin

I recently bought a Sony combined MD & CD for our Murder Mystery nights, which works very well. One of these and a normal CD player usually cover all requirements.

On the subject of thermals, it is not normally a good idea to put amps in the same rack as all of the other equipment, due to the large amount of heat they give off (unless you have some very good fans).

Also, there used to be a cut down version of the Yamaha SPX900, called the SPX92. I don't know if you can still get these, but they might bew available on e-bay etc.

Dave

<_< Well the immediate outcome is that a full program of fundraising is being instigated with the aim of some limited upgrading of lights and sound. Whilst decisions are not yet in stone I do think that we'll go along the lines of flight casing the sound kit and adding an effects processor.
The flight case will assist us in keeping the component parts connected, and we will get around the problem of the stairways one way or another.
We would like to have some sound effects available and have experimented with some borrowed bits and pieces in the past with varying degrees of success. I have to wait and see how the fundraising goes.
So far we have planned:-
A race night - excuse to go to the pub if one were needed!
A car boot sale.
Breakfast catering "in the park" for campers at the local folk festival
An Auction and a Duck Race (plastic ducks racing along the Falls of Dochart into Loch Tay)
So watch this space, I will get back to you Martin when our plans are closer to fruition, maybe you can help us locate some kit? Thanks for your help.